Coffee and Chat: 5P at Work

We are getting ready to start a chat with Ihsan Karagoz, a dear friend, at Gokturk Delicious in a sunny, lukewarm spring morning. We are comfortably lounging outside, at my favorite table with a bench. Ihsan is a hard-core multi-national corporate executive. Coming from a marketing background, Kraft, Gilette, Procter and Gamble are among his previous employers. He has worked as an expatriate in London and in Geneva. Even in Turkey, he has continuously worked in an international context, reporting to foreign bosses, having multi-national teams. Currently, he is the Turkey Managing Director of Mondeléz International. I am curious of his accumulated wisdom regarding both being an expat and also working within such an international environment.

He is citing facts about his career with a serious voice, but I can tell his mind is occupied in the background with hundreds of tasks and issues. His eyeballs are wandering, as if going through a mental list. He is very busy, with a demanding schedule of business travel agenda ahead of him. Normally a fun, warm and engaged person, today he looks distracted and distant, though polite as always. It must be the effect of meeting with somewhat a business agenda, at working hours. He is not “here” yet.

I want to connect him to the essence of his expat experience.

Ihsan what was a time, while you were an expat, that you were very happy and satisfied? Tell me about it.

Suddenly, he becomes quiet, his eyes fixed straight ahead, going down deep inside to search for a joyous time. Then his face lights up.

“When I was appointed as an expat to work in London, I was thrilled. I initially went alone, my family came about 3-4 months later. The business was doing great. Our financial condition was very good. We were living in a service apartment in the beginning. Then we moved to a beautiful home in Richmond. My son was only 9 years old and was very happy to come to London. I was very worried about him going to school, that very first day as he boarded the school bus. But he adapted very easily and was very popular in school.”

“They told me I had to select a car from a group of second hand cars. There was a Mercedes Coupe among them. I asked if I can take it and they said I could. I loved driving it.”

NOW he is fully present. There is a boyish grin in his face. I can tell he is looking at a mental video of driving the Mercedes Coupe. What is it about men and cars!

Who did you become by working as an expat?

“I became a person who takes care of his own chores. In Europe, there are none of the “service” or “support” people that we are used to in Turkey, such as drivers, assistants that you can call 24 hours a day, valets, cleaning ladies, etc. I became a man that lives a western style life, less executive, more hands on and sportive. I used the public transportation to go to work wearing a back pack. I walked to a lot of places. For example, if it is service time for your car, there is no one to arrange it for you. They give you an instruction on how to get the appointment and you take your car in for service yourself.

No one cares what you are an expert of, what your title is or how much money you have. Everybody is treated the same and everybody is equal. You have no privilege over anybody. The culture is more egalitarian. This is the positive aspect.

On the more challenging side, whoever you are, socially you are treated as a foreigner. Even if you live in the nicest area of the city, you are treated as a foreigner when you go to a pub for example. That feeling of estrangement bothers you after a while. At work though, you do not feel it, because most of the people working at the multi-nationals are foreigners anyway. “

What would you tell professionals, with no prior experience, going abroad to work as expats, to prepare them?

“To begin with, being part of the community and having a harmonious approach really helps.

1. In Europe, the egalitarian culture is very clear at work as well. Companies are not hierarchical. For example, even if you are the manager of a department, you are not able to lead your team with a “Because I say so!” attitude. You are obliged to make sound judgements and convince people to do things. The authoritative, parental management style of the East, does not work. The same is true in daily life, you are expected to treat people from all walks of life as equal. You can’t act superior to anyone, when you are communicating.

2. Enjoy the diversity. Diversity opens new horizons. Each culture has its own nuances. Put an effort to learn them. For example, after some time I started work in London, I was warned by the secretaries about the way I said “Good morning.” They told me that, it is not polite to say good morning anonymously when you come in. You have to put in an effort, to learn and say each person’s name as well, such as “Good morning Elaine! Good morning Ellen!” Actually, it is nice to do so, I continued with this habit when I got back to Turkey for a while, until I got lazy again.

3. Learn the local language together with the local culture wherever you go. When you are learning the local language, they also teach you some of the local culture. For example, when I went to Geneva, I took French lessons. It helped tremendously in my adaptation.

4. Join activities of the local community, such as club memberships, parties, tour, pubs, etc. You can enlist the locals from work, to help you with this.

5. Learn the city you live in very well. When I first went to London, I studied the London map and in the weekends I tried new routes by heart with my car. First you start by learning the route to work, then you learn the routes to important places such as the airport, you continue step by step.

6. Time as an expat flies fast. If you procrastinate sightseeing and travelling around to when you are very settled, you might not have enough time. Enjoy wherever you are by doing stuff and seeing places as much as possible.

The summary of the social side of the process is: first year adaptation, second year performance, third year comfort zone.”

What mistakes did you make?

“I made the mistake of trying to manage authoritatively, I mentioned earlier. I did it even though I knew that I was not supposed to do it, because I did not yet have the muscles to lead in a more egalitarian way. I did some stuff that bounced back and I had to adjust my style.”

What else is important to know?

“It is good to decide on your long term path early on. Choices are continuing expat life in different countries, going back to your country or staying in one country. It is critical to really think this through. As an expat the company will move you about every 2-3 years. Some expat people I know, resigned the multi-national, in order to stay in the country they are in. In this case, you join a local company as a manager and you stay a manager. In local companies, it is almost impossible to promote further when you are a foreigner. In this path you lose the advantages of working at a multi-national. You are thus impacted more from the disadvantages of being a foreigner.”

Who was a role model for you?

“I have many role models, each for different things. One that comes to my mind immediately is an Indian guy who was the head of shaving razors in Gilette London. He was born and raised in India. He was great in building and implementing strategy. He thought, analyzed and planned well. He had a specific process of preparing for regional management meetings. He collected pricing data from all regions, analyzed the data, calculated margins, forecasted required price increases. Then he would go through the results one by one, with related parties, in prep meetings. Finally, he utilized the results to devise arguments for the actual meeting. To this day, I use a similar process. It took a while for me, to get the hang of it; to control the timing, to coordinate well, to reason correctly and to devise effective arguments.

My current boss is also an Indian, he lives in Russia and his wife is Turkish. He is phenomenal in learning the local culture and devising behavioral patterns to adapt. He has an incredibly flexible style. When there is a problem or when he gets stuck with something, he immediately retreats and tries a different path without insisting or forcing a specific way.

His network is incredibly wide all over the world. He has great communication with people. Because he is very business and results oriented, even when he says something that people do not agree with, they know that he does not have a hidden agenda, so there is a rational discussion not an emotional reaction.”

What is a tip for success at work, as an expat?

“When you go abroad as an expat, at work you have to leave your nationality at the door. In order to be successful, you have to forget your nationality and take on the identity of an “international person”. You may be doing work with your own country, but you can’t treat it different from the other countries you do business with. You must be rational, otherwise it will not be professional.

Whereas in social life, you must become as local as possible. You can’t be fully local, just target moving towards this goal within reason.”

What would you recommend people who report to expats?

“I would recommend understanding the context of their boss very well. Who is he/she, why is he here, where is he coming from, where will he go, what is his target, what are his goals, what are his challenges, what will be his next step, what is the situation with his family?... Jut rationally internalizing his/her situation as much as possible. “What are the critical issues for this person while he/she is here?” This way you can really understand his/her mood and find ways of creating win-win situations that is at the intersection of his/her interests and your interests.”

What did you sacrifice?

“I think I was not around enough for my family. When I first went to London, I was mesmerized by the impact I could have. It is wonderful to be in an international business context, I enjoyed it, but I overdid it. The first year, I was away 110 days, it adversely affected my family relationships.

It is important to understand the perspective of the stakeholders that are affected by your decision to work as an expat. Putting only yourself to the center of things will bring failure. If I went to work now, I would seek more balance for my family.”

What is important for you at work?

“Firstly, I owe my success to passion. However, passion must be controlled well. Always keep in mind you are doing what, for the sake of what? My locking on targets had a negative impact on my relationships with people for a while, then I learned to balance it.

Secondly, perseverance, which is grit, which is insisting on achieving something and not giving up. Often perseverance is more important than talent”

I chuckle involuntarily. “Ihsan being a marketer you are in the middle of coming up with 4P” I say. 4P is the famous method used in marketing strategy, namely product, price, place and promotion. “You are right!” he says with a surprised expression.

“Thirdly, performance. Performance is completing a task in a manner that surpasses the expectation. Real performance has an element of surprise. All successful people are able to create this “surprise” effect. That take out luck factor from success.

Fourthly, personal agenda below company interests. With some people, you sense a hidden personal agenda in almost everything they say. That is very irritating. It really undermines trust. You start wondering if the person is actually working for the sake of company interest or not.”

“Ihsan is it a coincidence that the last two also start with P, or did you say them because I joked about 4P of marketing?” I ask.

Now, he chuckles, “I have to admit, I asked myself what other P’s are important after you reminded the 4P”.

I notice that order, tidiness, aesthetics are important for you. How does this aspect reflect on you work life?

“You are right. Order, tidiness, cleanliness, visuals are all important for me. I believe strongly that appearence is as important as the content. I am born with this urge. I remember that when I got up to drink milk at night at 5-6 years old, I would straighten out my bed. It would drive my mother crazy.”

“Can you call this package?” I ask, inspired to add a 5^th “P”.

“Yes, correct package!” he earnestly approves. “However, I have learned to balance this urge at work, by accepting what is outside my span of control.”

What didn’t I ask, that you would ask, if you were me and how would you answer that question?

“I would ask “How important is international expat experience on career?”

It is critical how you shape your career and what steps you take. If you are focused on your career, first decide on where you want be in the future. Determine what experiences you need, which skills you should develop. Decide the actions to take accordingly. Not all expat experiences take you to your target.

For example, I frequently hear “I want to become the general manager of a small country.” But one should think carefully. Does that small country need that person? Why would they want that particular person in that small country? Is a small country the place where that person will perform the best?

Without the long term view of your career and life in mind, just wanting to work as an expat may take you on a completely wrong route.”